THURSDAY 21/02/02 11:03:25

SF welcomes Donaldson debate agreement

Indications by hardline unionist Jeffrey Donaldson that he would be prepared to engage Gerry Adams in a public debate on Irish unity were welcomed by Sinn Fein today.

Mitchel McLaughlin, Sinn Fein`s national chairman, was responding to Mr Donaldson`s comments that he would be prepared to debate the issue once unionists worked out a way of resisting the republican strategy.

The exchange comes as Sinn Fein prepares for a strategy meeting on how it can advance a united Ireland through the Good Friday Agreement.

In an interview with a Belfast newspaper, Ulster Unionist MP Mr Donaldson claimed his community would have to ``quit internal bickering and get its act together`` to resist Sinn Fein`s plan to achieve a united Ireland.

Mr Donaldson, MP for Lagan Valley, was responding to Sinn Fein`s ``Road Map to the Republic`` document and comments from Mr Adams that unionists should start defining the type of united Ireland they could live in.

Mr Donaldson claimed disunity among unionist parties was threatening the future of the Union.

He told the Newsletter: ``They have a road map; but we have neither a map nor a compass.

``It`s clear their strategy is dependent upon their ability to divide and conquer unionism.

``It`s absolutely essential that we are not stupid enough to allow that to happen. In this respect, the future of the Union is largely in our own hands and we need to sit down and discuss it.``

Mr Donaldson said that after an internal discussion process, he would be prepared to publicly challenge Gerry Adams to a debate.

Arguing that nationalists had benefited from internal talks throughout the 1980s, he continued: ``We need thought-provoking papers and ideas. We need to look at the social and economic benefits of staying in the Union and the negative consequences of leaving.

``We need to assess demographic trends, re-assert the Union, both here and in the UK and we need to do that together.``

Mr McLaughlin said he welcomed Mr Donaldson`s comments.

``I do not expect Jeffrey Donaldson to come with an open heart or an open mind about a united Ireland, nor do I think he would expect republicans to come with an open heart or an open mind about greater integration with Britain.

``We come from diametrically opposite views, but any debate on this issue is welcome.

``Sinn Fein`s primary objective is a united Ireland but what we are interested in is what kind of united Ireland can be designed and established collectively by the entire people of Ireland.

``Our entire pitch is about engaging with unionists as much as possible.``

Mr McLaughlin, Assembly member for Foyle, said his party`s strategy meeting tomorrow in Navan in the Irish Republic, on advancing a united Ireland through the structures of the Good Friday Agreement, recognised there was now a prospect of achieving a level playing field between nationalist and unionist.

That left the issue of unity, he claimed, as the ``last great debate`` facing politicians on both sides of the Irish border.

``Sinn Fein is kickstarting that debate,`` he said.

``This is not fanciful. Remember, this time 10 years ago, Sinn Fein was in confidential talks with the British and Irish governments, with an embryonic Irish American lobby and elements of unionism.

``We have seen the progress that was made in the peace process over that period.

``What we are setting out is our stall in terms of a peaceful and democratic future. I believe we will gradually develop that debate and it will be managed in a sensible and realistic fashion

On 21/02/02 12:10:45, M from Sligo said:

Forget Lewis and Tyson, this is the fight i wanna see!!!!!

On 21/02/02 12:17:53, Andrew from Yorkshire  said:

I welcome Jeffrey Donaldson's attmept to demolish Sinn Fein over their weak arguments for 'unity'. However I fail to see how further legitimising these cretins in a public arena wil help the predicament of the UUP. There is nothing to discuss. The Union should not be up for negotiation - not now, not in the future.

On 21/02/02 12:27:12, Eoin Money said:

So young Jeff needs time to prepare. Doesn't he have a valid argument for 'Ulster remaining British' to hand. Obviously Unionists have a very weak argument if they have to discuss what they think. I could debate Jeff on valid reasons for an united Ireland today with no preparation, but i suppose thats what happens when you know you're right. Maybe if the UUC gets together they'll come up with 1 point they can agree on. Ever get the feeling you're on the losing side Jeff?

On 21/02/02 13:15:33, realist said:

sorry Andrew, it is and it will be. Tough luck buddy, your day has gone. Democracy decides our future now, and it ain't orange.

On 21/02/02 13:23:19, To Eoin said:

I would rather die than be united with someone of your intellect. I recall your comments yesterday in support of the rocket-launching RIRA heroes. Your blinkered views do a lot to harden the resolve of the Unionist people. That, oh knowledgeable one, is one of the many reasons why unification will never occur. Time to change the record and accept facts. 'Our day will come' is, and will forever be the cry

On 21/02/02 13:24:30, Uhhuh said:

What am I hearing - that the Unionists have AT LAST realised they have no sense of direction, leadership or goal achievemnet? I welcome Jeffrey's comments, but I think it is too little too late. The Republicans are playing this calm, focused waiting game with their eloquent words and intricate political gamework. The Unionists meanwhile are fighting among themselves and doing MUCH more harm to the Union than Republicanism ever did. This includes the extreme Loyalists who have been carrying out the majority of murders in the last 4 years. Don't you realise you are playing STRAIGHT into the hands of the now 'disciplined' Republicans. The Republicans know this. The Shinners are happy to have a debate because they will come across as 'the good guys' with their structured arguments. This will win public support across the world which in turn will apply more pressure on the 'bad boy' Unionists to 'give in'. Why are we even debating a United Ireland? I for one will NEVER live in one - no debate. Once Sinn Fein have achieved this then the struggle is well and truly over - they have everything else they have ever wanted (thanks to the spineless British government) Unionists - stand strong, because, as painful as it is for me to say it, you are not a patch on the Republican movement. You would really need get things in order for this United Ireland issue seems like 'match point' to me...

On 21/02/02 13:32:56, FAO Andrew from yorkshire from Paul in Derry said:

Andrew, every day you have comments in this website, do you have nothing better to do with your time..?? why dont you get a job and stop wasting tax payers money...

On 21/02/02 13:39:03, the kid said:

Jeffrey feeling scared.

On 21/02/02 13:48:10, Willie said:

Get their act together? That's an impossibility. It's people like Paisley and the DUP who push Northern Ireland ever closer into reunion with the Republic. By the way Andrew, you have no say in what happens in Northern Ireland. The more militant Loyalists are helping Sinn Fein with their anti-social behaviour.

On 21/02/02 13:53:16, To Eoin Money said:

OK Eoin, why dont you put your money where your mouth is and list your valid reasons for a united ireland. We are all listening.

On 21/02/02 14:14:40, portadown observer from said:

i suppose eoin that your valid reasons would be it would get rid of those horrible british soldiers of our streets? and well thats about it. i cant see any other good reason for it from any bodies point of view strategic or economic. anyhow what chance a united europe before a united ireland?? then were will your argument be?? surely sien feinn/IRA cant really expect to take over europe the same way their icon hitler did??

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On 21/02/02 14:17:05, Siobhan Cooney from Dublin said:

Can't wait for this one Why not make it pay-per-view... give the profits to victims of violence and cross-community initiatives... I'm sure this head-to-head would raise a fortune. By the way Andrew negotiating is what civilised people do and furthermore your bigoted views posted on this site are only proving to re-inforce the Nationalist arguement..I'm sure Gerry would thank you if he could....xxxxxx

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On 21/02/02 14:36:26, Speranza from said:

I agree with Eoin. It´s incredible. Jeff is basically saying, we´ll assert our reasons for being Unionists once we´ve figured out what they are! At least those that can be publically admitted. I take it the historic role of the union with Britain in guaranteeing ethnic supremacy won´t be mentioned. That´s the real problem Unionists have - they have the Union but the point of having it, sectarian dominance, is being undermined. So they have to figure out other reasons for wanting it. It´s totally circular: "I must decide reasons for being a Unionist so I can continue being a Unionist". Sad, really.

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On 21/02/02 14:59:06, Paul from Manchester said:

Reasons for a United Ireland: Irish people generally want a United Ireland. British people do not want British involvement in Northern Ireland any longer. The Unionist community would have a loud voice within a United Ireland perhaps 20% they are political minnows in London at present. Northern Ireland farmers would benefit from marketing their meat products as Irish rather than British. Citizens would be safer travelling on Irish passports rather than British. A United Ireland football team

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On 21/02/02 15:06:47, Peter from Dublin said:

I believe these frequent calls from SF for negotiations on a United Ireland is what will inevitably collapse the Agreement. These calls are divisive and will only push under seige Unionists to vote for the militant-like DUP and once they get a majority it's bye bye GFA. Why don't SF just let the institutions bed down and work on uniting Northern Ireland?

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On 21/02/02 15:07:37, Eoin Money from said:

I believe an injustice is an injustice no matter how long ago it happened. My homeland was stolen, raped and settled by a band of despicabe despots who continue to support a bigoted religious elite in one section of Ireland to the detriment of the indigenious and true owners of the whole of the Island. Just like the Nazi's the British and their supporters in Ireland are guilty of an initial act of war and crimes against humanity in Ireland for which they have never, been truly punished, made an apology and rectified their mistakes. Thus ruining the lives of countless generations of Irishmen as they have had to rise to overthrow an injust exploitation of their land. MY REASON, THE BRITS AND THEIR LOYALIST HENCHMEN SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN HERE, ARE NOT WELCOME AND SHOULD LEAVE HEADS BOWED IN SHAME. You asked what my argument was, simply EVIL DOES NOT BECOME LESS EVIL JUST BECAUSE THE INITIAL CAUSES OCCURRED LONG AGO. Get it yet, Irishmen will never give in, never accept partition, never accept our oppressors as valid. Do you have that moral weight behind your arguments, no just 'God and Ulster'

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On 21/02/02 15:30:45, Paul from Manchester said:

Steady on there Eoin, I think they were looking for pratical reasons as well as a moral reason.. we can't coerse the Unionists into a United Ireland no more than they could do same to Nationalists in Northern Ireland!! We have to learn from the mistakes made in past and vow to treat every single citizen of the future United Ireland as an absolute equal regardless of whether they are orange, green or purple with pink stripes!!!! One for all and all for one eh?? I tried to put forward some practical reasons (the first that came into my head)so please try to expand on that and leave the rhetoric alone - it just inflames people and we have enough of that I think...

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On 21/02/02 15:42:10, the kid from to Eoin money said:

I could not have said it better myself and congratulate you on your use of the foreign language to express your thoughts so elequantly for the bigots.

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On 21/02/02 15:42:27, Andrew from Yorkshire said:

It's amazing that in spite of all the loyalists who post on this site it is I who comes in for the most abuse from the motley band of IRA devotees on this site. Let me address a number of issues so that you are all quite clear: * There will not be a united Ireland because the demographic, economic, social and political arguments for it do not exist and are incapable or being nurtured and sustained without direct or implied use of violence (take McLaughlin's protestantions in Stormont over the amnesty for on-the-run terrorists). * The conseuences of a united Ireland are such that the entire island would be destabilised for a number of years, perhaps generations to come. * This piffle about being 20% of the population of an all-Ireland state means that the ratio of population obviously increases, vis a vis the ratio to the rest of the UK, many times over. Ergo, the level of subsidy diminishes by the same ratio thus vastly reducing investment currently available from the Treasury. * Ireland was never a united country except under British rule. It wasn't us that partitioned Ireland, it was the people of the Republic that partitioned the United Kingdom in order to build a state around Catholic exclusivity. * Yes I do indeed have postings on her every day but in order to read them you must access the site every day. Thus, haven't you got any work to go to. Can any republicans give equally good reasons for their stance other than the gibberish about historical wrongdoings and distortion, their vision that a geographical entity must equal a sovereign entity and their general hatred of all things British.

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On 21/02/02 15:44:17, realistic from said:

If Jeffrey were smart, he wouldn't debate at all,by debating he legitimises a united Ireland even though he opposes it. Of course his collossal ego has overidden his common sense.Nationalists need to redouble their push for a fully free and independent Ireland,the sooner the better. Sooner or later,Ireland will be rid of the British occupiers.

On 21/02/02 15:56:30, True Blue from Waterford said:

Your all a pack of clowns if you think that Sinn fein want a united IreLand. Then they would have to give up their criminal empire and the vast profits it makes them. Wise up, Sinn fein are only winding and/or fooling the lot of ye!

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On 21/02/02 16:19:58, Jo from said:

I suppose I really shouldnt flatter Eoin Moneys last diatribe with ANMY sort of commentary but its the sort of thing that shows the value of sitting and looking at something you put down on paper? Also anyone reading that could possibly realise that the word "bigot" doesnt always have the word "orange" in front of it..."get it yet"... Eoin? :)

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On 21/02/02 16:33:09, portadown observer from said:

eoin has just proved a point that has been bandied about for years. sien feinn/IRA cry that we must forget the past and get on with the future , but once it looks like they are losing an argument they harp back to the 'raping and pillaging of 'our' land etc etc." romantic clap trap , if we all thought like that , everyone would have to leave america and leave the red indians to it ,the vikings would leave england and there would be very few left , need i go on??? the truth of the matter is eoin your are probable as much from anglo bloodlines as i am , as scientific studioes have shown there are no celtic bloodlines left in ireland!!!! look to the future man ,or does that not suit at the minute????

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On 21/02/02 16:36:35, BIG C from said:

"BRITS AND THEIR LOYALIST HENCHMEN SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN HERE, ARE NOT WELCOME AND SHOULD LEAVE HEADS BOWED IN SHAME. " is that what gerry adams meant by reaching out to unionists amd trying to get them to agree to a united ireland??? your true colours shine through. thanks for that eoin.

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On 21/02/02 16:45:35, to Andrew from said:

The reason you come in for more criticism than the Loyalists is because the Loyalists are Irishmen and hopefully will soon be our fellow countrymen and have a valid reason to take part in this debate, you on the other hand never have ANYTHING remotely positive or constructive to say and as such your comments are unhelpful, hurtful and downright bigoted and THAT is why you take so much flak here....I thought that would have been obvious..maybe its because you expect the Loyalists to rush to your defence and they don't, is that what gets you Andrew? The reason they don't (I would imagine) is due to the reasons outlined above.. Who on earth needs a bigoted dinosaur like your goodself on their side???????

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On 21/02/02 16:49:38, Peter from Dublin said:

REPLY TO ANDREW - (Just to clarify an error in your last post)It wasn't the Free State government that partitioned the country. The "Ulster" question was put into the hands of a Boundary Commission that most people (British & Irish) thought would make NI too small an economic entity to function. However the "independent" judge, Mr. Justice Feetham, was a confirmed Unionist and thus Unionism had two seats on the Commission versus the Free State's 1 and although the Free State wanted Irish Unity they were forced to accept partition. In fact the North was the main election issue up till the 60s

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On 21/02/02 16:55:45, Speranza from said:

All the reasons for ultimate reunification are fundamentally pragmatic. Irish reunification may have an emotional/romantic content, but it is essentially a logical response to the modern world. Unionism once was equally pragmatic in a cynical way - if you stand to benifit from a system of sectarian supremacy, defending that system has an amoral logic. The problem today is that they retain the identity but no longer the foundation in reality on which that identity was manufactured. This leads to a very neurotic and unstable political community, with few friends beyond the wilder shores of British nationalism exemplified by Andrew, who probably writes letters to the Daily Mail when he isn´t posting here. Both Unionists and Andrew are in the unenviable position of owing instinctive, reactive emotional loyalty to a world which, thankfully, no longer exists: Empire, Bully Beef, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant Britain. Their condition is ultimately pitiful.

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On 21/02/02 17:07:57, Eoin Money from To Portadown Observer said:

You seem to have confused me with a member of some organisation called SF/IRA, I can assure you I belong to no political party or physical force organisation. I'm just a normal republican, unfortunately not one that easily forgives injustice. To those of you who expected an economic or political argument for unity, sorry folks thats not my job I'll go for the moral high ground every time.

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On 21/02/02 17:24:34, to Andrew from Ulster born & bred said:

Thank you for you constructive and well spoken comments on this and other matters Andrew. Do not listen to the rabid rants and jibes from these republican whinners for they only attack you and other loyalist posters for one simple and painful reason and that is their bigoted and distasteful hatred of all things British and Protestant which is many many times plain for all to see on the various pages of this site. Keep speaking the truth and remember "for evil to flourish it only needs good people to say nothing".

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On 21/02/02 18:07:19, ex loyalist from said:

i think we would be better off as equals in united ireland, than a 10% pain in the neck to britain who cant wait to get rid of us.

On 21/02/02 18:24:46, SK from Dublin said:

I love it! Finally wee Jeffrey's found the courage to put his money where his mouth is and give republicans the chance to demolish whats left of his dying little political outlook. Apparently he has to figure out what exactly it is he's defending first though. Gerry Adams versus Jeffrey Donaldson. Who'd you put your money on?

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On 21/02/02 19:20:53, derry man from said:

I WELCOME ANY DEBATE ON THE FUTURE OF THIS ISLAND. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT HARD TO TELL HOW THE DEBATE WILL GO. ADAMS WILL PRODUCE SOME VERY GOOD POINTS AND DONALDSON WILL HUFF AND PUFF AND GET ANGRY. HOW CAN HE DEFEND THE UNION WHEN ALL THAT IT HAS BROUGHT HAS BEEN HEARTACHE, MISERY AND SHAME ON THE BRITISH AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT, IT IS WRONG, IMMORAL, ILLEGAL AND DOWNRIGHT STUPID, JUST THINK ALL THE MONEY THE BRITS WASTE HERE ON 'SECURITY' COULD BE BETTER SPENT IN ENGLAND PROVIDING A PROPER HEALTH SERVICE. ROLL ON A UNITED IRELAND, FOR EVERYONE, CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS.

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On 21/02/02 19:29:13, Alain from Munster said:

Point of info for the poster who claimed that Ireland was only ever united under British rule.Not so I'm afraid, Ireland was a united entity under several high Kings of Ireland at various times, the most famous of which being Brian Boru in the 10th/11th century. For the record that was before the Norman invasion

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On 21/02/02 21:06:00, SAM from CANADA said:

AS AN ULSTER MAN LIVING HERE IN CANADA I LIKE TO READ WHAT ANDREW HAS TO SAY,SO KEEP ON POSTING.I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO SEE GERRY IN A DEBATE, WITHOUT HIS SCRIPT. IT WOULD EXPOSE SF/IRA FOR THE LIARS THEY ARE.

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On 21/02/02 23:12:28, Fra to Andrew from said:

First, their seems to be some hole in you education. Your knowledge of history seems to based on assunptions rather than study. If you go back and study 8th and 9th century you will see that Ireland enjoyed a great unity under the High King. We also enjoyed a surge in intellectuall life and institutions. There was some friction between some counties at this time, but on the whole it is what is know as the "golden era" of Irish history. It was not until the vikings invaded us that this unity was shaken, and then destroyed by the British invasion in the 12th century. Second, I don't understand your comment about the 20% increasing with the inclusion of the rest of the UK. When Ireland is united the rest of the Uk will not have a thing to do with it. It is clear that the attempted colonization of Ireland has not worked. It is the reason the country is in it's present mess.

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On 22/02/02 00:00:48, bluemoon from manchester said:

to andrew are you sure your from yorkshire. eh what? i left tyrone 1970 thank god,have you ever left.far to many bigots and thugs on both sides.one reason why i am not a republican EOIN, SAD PEOPLE'loyalists are now finding out what it felt like to be a catholic in 50s 60s. not nice eh? anyway RED ROSE andrew##

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On 22/02/02 05:40:47, to andrew from said:

something for you to remember, andrew, when it comes time to vote for oe against reunifacation, you do NOT have a vote, so everything you spew is totally irrelevant!

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On 22/02/02 09:07:05, Andrew from Yorkshire said:

The concept of nation-states entered into force with the Treaty of Westphalia in the 18th Century. Ireland was not recognised not constructed as a united sovereign entity prior to that treaty. In fact it was only recognised as such after the Act of Union 1801 as part of the United Kingdom (this act remains in force under the GFA with respect to Northern Ireland despite Sinn Fein claims to the contrary). There will not be a united Ireland. By the way, SK, I gave a sprinkling of numerous reasons why the clamour for a united Ireland is absurd. What did you give? Nothing! Don't you cretins realise that the only reason Sinn Fein is desperate to engage the pro-Union majority on this issue is that the footsoldiers in the Provos are beginning to realise just what they reluctantly endorsed (constitutionally) back in 1998.

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On 22/02/02 10:05:06, MR BORDER POLL from ULSTER- UK said:

There are many reasons to be proud of and to support the UK status of Northern Ireland. Firstly, contrary to what rabid fascist republicans would have you believe, the UK is a respected and admired democracy around the world. Even in former colonies the fact of being a part of the Commonwealth is a source of pride and many of the structures and benefits of colonial rule are treasued closely (refer recent visit of Queen to Jamaica and the tremendous welcome). In addition the UK is one of the most accomodating and inclusive nations in the world. It has a long history of welcoming victims of persecution from the Jews in the late 19th and early 20th century to the Asians put out by Idi Amin in the 70s- the current clamour by refugees to enter the UK (foresaking other countries such as France, Germany etc) is apparent for all to see- why we even tolerate and allow republicans to flourish. The social, policitical & historical link between Ulster and the rest of the UK are blatantly so myriad as to take up more than my mere posting. The problem with republicanism is that their arguments tend to be very simplistic- i.e. they look at a map and see the Island of Ireland as one entity- very childlike indeed. Nationality is not defined by sharing the same piece of land otherwise, to take it to the ridiculous level of republicanism, Europe and Asia would be one single entity. (If required I will give countless examples of smaller land masses which are divided). Anyway to any unionists out there worried by the apparent rise of Sinn Fein- relax- all opinion polls show support for a united ireland hovering either above or below the 20% figure- so just encourage the next border poll- and let all of us- Catholic and Protestant - celebrate our UK status and heritage.

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On 22/02/02 11:38:38, Andrew from Yorkshire said:

Actually, Mr Border Poll, you have raised an issue I'd forgotten about. Yes it does seem weird that so many people from disadvantaged nations around the world are clamouring to receive British citizenship (going to such lengths as trying to cut the brake lines on Channel Tunnel locomotives in order to gain access, escaping from detention centres an going into hiding etc etc. The UK is the most popular nation in the world for asylum seekers due to its tolerant nature and generous benefits. We musn't forget that over 1 million citizens from the Republic have made their home in the UK. Yet, we have republican fascist wallies on here who see merit in feebly trying to end British citizenship for those in Northern Ireland purely to suit their own narrow agendas. Isn't it SAD??????

On 22/02/02 12:51:16, Speranza from said:

The UK most popular destination for those seeking a new life? Tell that to Germany and the United States.

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On 22/02/02 13:09:57, MR BORDER POLL to Andrew from ULSTER- UK said:

Andrew it is indeed sad, fair enough if they have a desire for a united ireland, but it has no bearing on reality and is based on a combination of childish romanticism and hatred of all things British. No doubt the usual replies will be that you, I or any other unionist who opposes a united ireland is somehow a bigot (which ironically highlights their own prejudices)- just watch.

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On 22/02/02 14:19:01, Morris from said:

To Andrew and Border Poll, I think the people of India, whose culture and traditions Britain tried to obliterate would have a problem with your statements. In Ireland, Britain tried to obliterate dance, language and oh yes of course, Irishmen. You Loyalists are fooling yourselves. You can quote the Loyalist history books till you turn red white and blue. It won't change the truth. Ireland is Ireland. Ireland unfree will never be at peace.

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On 22/02/02 14:30:29, RB to Speranza from Befast said:

Try telling that to the thousands of asylum seekers risking life and limb in France trying to reach the shores of the UK.

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On 22/02/02 14:51:25, RB to Morris from Belfast said:

Dead on Morris - very cohesive and strong argument you have "Ireland is Ireland. Ireland unfree will never be at peace."- thats it, when in doubt and confused resort to cheap republican soundbites and forget about reality. For your information the British and the British nation are not hated in India, and indeed they have kept intact most of the structures set up by the British (eg govt, courts etc). I think you will find the only unity needed is amongst the people of Northern Ireland.

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On 22/02/02 15:12:28, Speranza to RB from said:

I don´t deny that. I´m simply pointing out the fact that Germany and the US take more. The UK takes in well below the average for a large EU state, despite all that they claim in the racist scaremongering Tory press.

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On 22/02/02 16:12:54, RB to Speranza from Belfast said:

But then again Speranza, you and I both know that it depends which figures you are looking at. The massaged govt pictures arent even close.

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On 22/02/02 16:36:03, Noel Hogan from Kildare said:

The debate on a United Ireland comes down to one thing at the end of the day. Money, money and more money. I'm not trying to be insulting, but that's what it's about. The present situtation requires NI to be propped up every year by a hefty subvention from the English taxpayer. If SF are really serious about promoting a United Ireland, they will have to tackle this issue. That is probably the biggest thing on the minds of most pro-unity people on the island.

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On 22/02/02 18:38:58, ballymena born and bred from said:

to realist.It ain't green either ,sad moron.

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On 22/02/02 18:45:20, Unionist from belfast said:

to eoin money.As a Unionist ihave nevr been guilty of crimes against humanity in Ireland.And i certainly will never apologize to you oryour like for being British.So get a life preferably in the ROI where you belong.

On 22/02/02 18:55:23, broughshane from said:

eoin money is there such a person as a normal republican?I don't think so.YOu don't forgive injustice?Well it's people ( for want of a better word) like who have caused nothing but injustice and suffering to protestants in N.I.We haven't forgot it either.So go back to your green cloud cuckoo land.

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On 22/02/02 20:25:44, Martin from west belfast said:

Jeffrey Donaldson is perhaps the most analithical politician at present in the unionist camp and regardless of how we nationalists and republicans are opposed to a lot of what he has to say,we cant deny that over the years he has made some valid points-from his perspective-which will need to be addressed in any discussion that arises.I look forward to the debate which can only produce a positive result.

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On 23/02/02 01:16:15, to rb from Elizabeth from said:

I think you are the ones with the pathetic sound bites-no surrender garbage etc. I guess we're back to that old standby british imperialism rubbish about how the countries they stole were so much better off because of british occupation. Yeah, right! I guess the implication is that the Irish natives are too stupid to rule themselves and need big brother Britain to help us along. Try again. You can attempt to legitamize the occupation of a country that doesn't belong to you all you want in your twisted little minds. It will never make it right no matter how much you put your fingers in your ears and whistle the Queen. Imperialism is over period. Get over it.

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On 23/02/02 15:37:47, To Broughshane from said:

Most Protestants are decent. Bitter Loyalists are only happy when they are grinding their heels into Catholics. Injustice to you is basic civil rights for Catholics. You are a bigot thru and thru.

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On 23/02/02 18:11:42, AH from Enniskillen said:

The frequency of united ireland news items in recent times is quite amusing to say the least, for they can only get nationalist hopes up and nothing more. But for the sake of a few days peace, Donaldson can enter the debate if he pleases. Regardless of the outcome, the Sinn Fein/IRA green bubble will be burst. The fact remains that nothing less than a British NI as a fully integral part of the United Kingdom will be acceptable, free from Dublin interference. If anything the debate will highlight the futility of any future debates of its kind - Northern Ireland is not and never will be up for negioation. Sorry Shinners.

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On 23/02/02 19:27:35, Fra to Andrew from said:

Just because Ireland wasn't recognized as a united nation by Britain until the 19th century does not mean it was not united before then.

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On 23/02/02 20:46:29, Joe from said:

To say that Ireland North + south should be united simply because it is a single land mass is absurd. Northern Irelands is culturely (?), politically and economic poles apart form the south. ANd who should foot the bill for such Unity. why should the british as the IRish who have laid clam to here for so long no paid a penny to their own (so-called) citizens here

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On 24/02/02 03:28:45, Paddy Carlos from said:

Believe it nor not - Northern Ireland was once part of the Free State (for a day) and opted out. So the argument that Ireland was only ever united under British rule might not technically stand up in court! In truth, Ireland was never really united under British Rule either as the Act of Union was not a democratic act and the people of Ireland had no say in it. In ancient times, Ireland could also be argued to have been united under the Fir Bolgs who actually created the provinces of Ulster, Connacht, Leinster and Munster. Those who say a United Ireland is not viable economically, I ask - where is the "can do" attitude. If the Rep of Ireland can grow to be one of the strongest economies in Europe, then how could 1.5 million enterprising Ulster men and women not only make it stronger. It's looked as if the South should have to support the North. Wrong the North would be playing their part and within ten years, there's no reason why we couldn't have a thriving economy and a "New Ireland", with a new flag, new national anthem, new constitution and all move forward together. The country belongs to us all and it behooves us all to make it work.

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On 24/02/02 09:58:22, GM from Ballyclare said:

Question: Why does anybody want to be part of Southern Ireland. Is there a booming economy? Will they be so nice on the non working population(you don't seem to bothered with the UK when collecting the queens dole money)? So can we have a valid reason and don't say the nice scenery because frankly no-one gives a damn. Also Paul from Derry obviously you mustn't have a job also, if you can find the time to read all Andrews comments! Just to finish Realist, you are right democracy does rule thats why we are part of the UK, have you not seen the news for the last 90 or so years.

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On 24/02/02 12:49:05, RB to Elizabeth from Belfast- UK said:

I love debating with you Elizabeth because you are one of the biggest republican simpletons on this site. With your anachronistic talk of "empire" and countries being stolen, you have clearly run out of ideas. Did you see the welcome the Queen got in Jamaica recently?? Fantastic. It is only the few fascist republicans like yourself who talk like that so I would suggest that you get over it. Oh and by the way- no change to the constitutional status of NI wihtout majority consent ala GFA- and as the conflict is about nationality and not religion- the healthy pro UK catholic community will leave you crying into your poteen come the 1st border poll. BRING ON THE BORDER POLL- THE PRO BRITISH MAJORITY HAVE NOTOHING TO FEAR.

On 24/02/02 13:43:53, to rb from Elizabeth from said:

To pretend that ANY catholic, republican or not, would vote to remain part of the UK is delusional. If this is the nonsense they are spouting at your orange order meetings, it is very sad. No catholic would ever choose to be subjogated, harassed or remain a second class citizen. Any time someone disagrees with your point of view, we are simpletons, right? The days of making catholics out to be mentally inferior are over along with your childish flag waving imperialism. We are not inferior in any way and we will no longer stand for british imperialism. If you don't like that, Too Bad! Oh and by the way, are you so sure all protestants would vote to remain part of UK? I think that's what really is behind this pathetic fantasy that catholics would line up to vote for the UK inclusion. I also wonder if it will come to that at all, as the British government are so tired of being embarassed by the so-called loyalist outrages that they just may cut you loose without your referendum. They no longer have the money to fund their occupation. It will be interesting to see who's right, won't it.

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On 24/02/02 15:41:21, RAMBO from said:

I THOUGHT THE U.U.P WERE PRO- UNNITED IRELAND!

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On 24/02/02 16:00:47, Speranza from said:

The level of debate on this site is depressing. The personal nature of the Loyalist comments - nationalist cretins etc - is a worrying relection of the current state of the Unionist mind. And the nature of their arguments, NI as British as Birmingham, Fenian dole-scroungers etc, would be comical if it wasn´t so serious a worry that people actually believe that nonsense. And Republicans don´t help their case by banging on about centuries-old history. You don´t win people over that way. The case for a new, unified state with a new, agreed constitution (one which will by definition reflect the sense of Britishness of many Irish people)is best made by reference to the modern world, European integration, the cultural and political erosion of the British state and its old institutions, and the ever accelorating economic integration between both parts of Ireland. These are long-term historic trends. The historic circumstances which led to the Union with Britain and partition are passing away and being replaced by new circumstances. And Ireland will therefore change in the next century. It is in the self-interest of Unionists to recognise this change and be part of it. Playing King Canute and trying to hold back the tide is no good for yourselves and your children. And I´m genuinely not trying to be provocative here. Let´s discuss this like civilised adults.

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On 24/02/02 16:56:53, Andrew from Yorkshire said:

I would ask to ask Speranza if he/she has noticed the personal invective launched against the pro-Union majority - especially from Brian with his insulting array of blandishments including: 'vile Orange tentacle; Orange neanderthals; SS/RUC; settler scum ad infinitum? The actions, culture and political aspirations of the Republic make the argument that it could be capable of incorporating any sense of Britishness absurd. As for the argument that EU integration furthers the cause of a 'united' Ireland I could ask how come the same couldn't be said for closer integration of the Republic into the UK? Using provocation to make a point (whilst simultaneously denying that any provocation is implied) does you no favours. A country can only be united on the basis of shared cultural, national and political understandings and aspirations. Without that fundamental point, a united geographical territory is impossible. Look no further than Czechoslovakia, India, Yugoslavia pre 1992, the Soviet Union and Timor for classic examples. I'll bet anyone that the Union will exist for so long as the concept of individual nation states exists.

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On 24/02/02 17:48:00, RB to Elizabeth from Belfast said:

Your comments of being second class citizens are typical of the chip on the shoulder mentality of many in the republican community- it has no bearing on reality much as you love wearing the shroud of victimhood. You and I can chew the fat all day on a united ireland but the bottom line is only a majority vote in any border poll willl change things & I as a confident unionist actively encourage that poll just to show the small support for a united ireland. Bring it on. Speranza you weaken your argument by implying some sort of inevitablity for a united ireland- this is the sign of someone running out of arguments. The so called intergration of Europe has no more implication of a united ireland than it does from uniting the republic with the rest of the united kingdom- in any event as Northern Ireland is part of the UK any future European integration depends on the UK as a whole. The UK itself is a secure entity- the recent devolution has given a new dimension to the whole structure and weakened independence calls in Scotland (in Wales independence isnt even an issue as this is not even on Plaid Cymrus' agenda!). The argument for a continued UK status of NI is an extremely strong one- the historical, social, political and cultural ties are too numerous to list (I can in my next posting if you wish). But please Speranza, do not cheapen your stance by condemning unionists for not wanting a United Ireland on the basis that it is inevitable- a trite case as clearly nothing is bar death and taxes!

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On 24/02/02 19:29:51, SK from Dublin said:

Andrew from Yorkshire, for some odd reason you left out your own classics in your last comment (cant think why), including 'Nationalist cretin', 'Celtic sloth', 'third class citizen' etc, etc. You a chara, are in no position to criticise anyone else. As for the national question, Ireland's right to sovereignty, independence and unity are inalienable and indefeasible. It is for the Irish people as a whole to determine the future status of Ireland. Neither Britain nor a small minority selected by Britain has any right to partition the ancient island of Ireland, nor to determine its future as a sovereign nation. Its that simple. Nobody can deny that at this point in time we are closer than ever to achieving that goal, with a growing economic partnership between the north and south and a growing interest down here in our northern brothers, not to mention a sharply rising nationalist vote (dilute the truth all you want, but the fact is the combined nationalist vote is 46%. Incontestable.) Then there is the fact that everyone has seemed to leave out. Britain does not want you. In fact, if Tony Blair had the option, does anyone deny that he would hand the 'paddies' back to the 'paddies' tomorrow? All roads lead to a united Ireland, deep down we all know it. Its just a matter of time.

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On 24/02/02 19:33:13, Speranza to Andrew/RB from said:

You miss my points. A´s argument about the lack of cultural unity between north and south is self-defeating because the same applies in spades between NI and Britain. There is no more cultural consensus in NI for a United Kingdom than there is for a United Ireland. The two cancel each other out. Stalemate. So move the argument to other ground. The point about the Republic being unfit for a British community doesn´t refute my point - it confirms it. The 26 counties is unattractive precisley because it is a partitioned state with a manufactured Catholic hegemony. That all changes with the influx of a million Ulster prods who will form one of the biggest voting blocks, and without whom it will be impossible to form a coalition government. They will have a major say in the nature of policy and the character of the state. They will have something they currently chronically lack. Power. And as for the stability of Britain itself, I´ve lived there, both in England and Scotland. The people there have zero loyalty to Ulster Unionists (Andrew is not representative). The Scots are positively anti-British (Rangers fans totally unrepresentative) and I predict that all the SNP need for an overall majority is a Tory government in London. Which, horrifying a thought as it is, will happen eventually. Britain is changing, folks. Irish nationalists aren´t making it happen, and Unionists can´t stop it happening. See the bigger picture. Time to form new relationships.

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On 25/02/02 01:03:42, Harry from Ballsbridge said:

A united Ireland? The free staters watch Tv too you know, and I can tell you that most of them would commit hari kari if they thought they were being "united" with the North

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On 25/02/02 06:37:28, to gm from said:

The reason that NI is not part of a united Ireland is because the country, that is the entire country was not given the option, rather a false statelet was formed so that Loyalists would have there majority.

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On 25/02/02 09:46:37, RB to Speranza from Befast said:

You make quite a large prediction by stating that the SNP will get a majority if the Tories form a govt- where is your evidence for this? it did not happen the last time. I predict that this will not happen. Indeed the combined UK parties vote in Scotland consistently out perform the SNP by 3 to 1 in every election. One of your arguments is that unionists will make up a 20% block in a any united ireland- supposedly giving them more power than they do currently in the UK- you have missed the point completely. We currently have a 50% (equal say) in the governance of Northern Ireland through the Assembly- greater than any supposed power in a united ireland. SK- you do not put any cohesive argument for a united ireland other than some mystical (and totally false) belief in the nation state of Ireland based purely on a land mass!! Very poor- must do better.

On 25/02/02 10:24:38, Andrew from Yorkshire said:

'Andrew is not representative'? Are you seriously trying to tell me that the Republic is brimming with those who yearn for a united Ireland whilst mainland UK is brimming with the same ratio who want to see an end to the Union. That's farcical! The fact is that the raison d^etre of the Republic's existence is anti-Britishness. It made no attempt to create warmth for the pro-Union majority (NI)in 1921 and has done nothing since. As long as provocative nationalists try to undermine the Unionist psyche by constantly predicting a united Ireland then for so long shall the North remain unstable (a completely different outcome from what was intended during the creation of the GFA). The simple fact SK et al is this - Unionists WILL NOT live in a united Ireland under a republican (or any other system of government). If you people are trying to provoke a backlash of severe proportions then you are going the right way about it! I have a postal vote for Northern Ireland elections and you can guarantee that if nationalists are stupid and self-defeating enough to call for their long-awaited border poll then I and many others from GB will be campaigning with all the energy we can muster to make sure that Dublin never gets control of our Union. My X will be firmly placed in the box for the status quo.

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On 25/02/02 11:17:09, Mickey from Free Derry from said:

To RB....Stormount is a devolved assembly ... it does not have tax raising powers ... and futhermore 50% say in the governance of a region that is not an econmically stable or politically viable. You don't have 50% say at all... you have 50% say in matters that you are allowed to have say in... tax raising powers RB ... you can not raise your own funds for public expenditure ... this is not true governing at all.

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On 25/02/02 12:24:12, Peter from Dublin said:

Andrew you spout a lot of nonsense about the Republic. The Republic of Ireland is no longer, and hasn't been for some time, "anti-British". Both Ahern and Blair are on excellent terms and in Europe Ireland and GB have formed alliances on many issues like the refusal to drop passport controls between UK and Ireland and Europe. SF has publicly criticised Ahern for his stance on decommisioning and his stance on the police board and Unionists (inlcuding Donaldson) commended Ahern's stance against SF in a Dublin government. If that's not trying to "warm" to the Unionist community I don't know what is. Also Bertie Ahern became the first Irish premier to have a face to face Dublin meeting with Rev. Ian Paisley. Want more?....

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On 25/02/02 13:00:40, Mickey from Free Derry from said:

Andrew...what will you do then when the time comes for re-unification ? as a real democrat i assume you would abide by the wishes of the majority when the 6 counties vote to be re-unified with the rest of our island. When Unionists are outnumbered in a vote Andrew ..then they will have to live in a re-unified Ireland ... and no matter how you try to dilute the truth the facts remain that there are an ovewhelmong number in the South of Ireland who want Re-unification...just look at the electoral campaigning in the South..with virtually all the main parties adopting the Re-Unification line!ps. the SDLP are still a PRO RE-UNIFICATION party and have contested every election since its inception on this fact ...no matter how you try to dilute or dispute it ... but then again ...you are the great delusionist .. aren't you Andrew .. keep posting and keep me laughing ?

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On 25/02/02 13:27:43, RB to Mickey from Belfast said:

Clearly it is a devolved assembly with central control from Westminster- but governance is involved to deny it it silly- your bile seeps through when you say that Northern Ireland is not a viable political entity or economically stable - clearly it is on both counts- particularly when part of the UK economy- a significant economy in European terms- rather than relying on handouts like in the republic- I believe the cracks are showing in the so called celtic tiger. If you think Northern Ireland isnt a viable entity in current terms then be prepared for what would happen in the event of unity.

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On 25/02/02 14:43:54, Multicultural Mucksavage from said:

NI is the UK's mess. Why should the south have to look after it. It's the UK and as such in the UK idiots throw bombs at girls going to school, sectarianism has always been the way. It's a religion for these nuts and firebrands like Paisley promote it all the time with their seditious rhetoric. It's a UK mess and let the UK solve their mess. Of course they never will. Other than that, cut it off, float it up somewhere near the North Pole and call it the gulf of Ulster.

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On 25/02/02 14:45:01, Mark from London said:

What most of you people don't seem to realise is that it is not only Sinn Fein that is committed to a united Ireland, My government here in England is too, they have already stated clearly that they no longer have any strategic or economic interest in the North of Ireland, its just that they are trapped here, they can't withdraw UNTIL they have helped establish a stable government in the state of Northern Ireland, but once this is achieved its bye bye from Britain. We no longer want anything to do with Northern ireland, and as soon as you all stop your internal bickering, we will withdraw.

On 25/02/02 17:47:09, Mickey from Free Derry from said:

Really RB.... you think that the 6 counties are politically and economically stable ..can you really say that when political corruption and discrimination has been the norm since its foundation... & economically stable?... with the deterioration in the textile industry and the farming industry ( which is still a huge factor in the Irish economy ..North and South... but has ceased to be an important part of the British economy )! the reason why the economy has survived in some sort of structure is really only beccause of the British government shoring it up and through international funding which is drying up. When Unification does arrive the Brits along with the Irish government and the international world will still have to pay up until Ireland as a whole is stable ... this would be the least we expect from the Brits ..

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On 25/02/02 17:58:32, Andrew from Yorkshire said:

I'm so glad I make you laugh. If that's what the truth will do to you, Mickey, then believing that Sinn Fein are a peaceful constitutional party must make you as miserable as sin. Nationalists will not outvote Unionists because the numbers aren't there for them to do so. Dangling this nonsensical sword of Damocles about unification will only have the effect of crushing your spirits when, in thirty + years from now, you will still be telling myself and other Unionists on this site that a united Ireland is nigh. By that time I will have laughed so much I will probably be barrel-chested.

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On 25/02/02 18:47:55, SK from Dublin said:

RB, the point has already been made that you do not have self-governance in the six counties, not by a long shot. Adding this to the fact that your economy is so heavily subsidised by the British that if they were to withdraw from funding you for a month, we would be paradropping food parcels down to you (and we're the spongers!!),it makes it more and more difficult for people like myself to understand why you want to maintain the disadvantaged position you are in now by turning your nose down to the real political and economic power you would hold in a united Ireland. As for Andrew, yes the republic is brimming with those who yearn for a united Ireland (Fianna Fail, a republican party the most powerful in Ireland, Sinn Fein's vote expected to be quadrupled at least in the next election) and no, when it comes to Irish affairs, north or south you have no say. When it comes to constitutional issues espeacially you can mail in all the votes you want, but that doesnt mean anybodies reading them. It kind of begs the question: Why are you here?

On 26/02/02 15:04:44, RB to Speranza from said:

I would like your evidence of the pro independence view of some Labour supporters- again I am interested- I would like to know the source. In answer to your question Yes.

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On 26/02/02 15:22:48, Clare from Essex said:

Get a grip Mark and wise up, most English people don't even know where Northern Ireland is on the map or Scotland for that matter. Offer them a Ulster Bank £10 note to make a purchase in a shop and they will stare at it like its fallen out of a tree. As for holding an opinion on Northern Ireland like you suggest, you must be joking. I speak from experience having lived here for 30 years.

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On 26/02/02 16:30:11, Willie from said:

Andrew those who do not live in Northern Ireland deserve no vote. I think the government should look into this. How could it possibly be fair for an outsider and an agitator to help decide the future of Northern Ireland.

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On 26/02/02 18:08:35, SK from said:

Andrew, this is an Irish matter and like I already said, when it comes to constitutional issues you have absolutely no say, nor does anyone else from Britain. Please bear in mind though, that if and when the referendum for a united Ireland comes, the republic's permission will be required, which is where my say in the matter comes from. Considering that this debate is all about a constitutional issue, I'll ask again: Why are you here?

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On 26/02/02 18:19:53, Andrew from Yorkshire said:

I like that one, Willie. One minute you and your ilk are spewing hatred of our government for 'illegally' occupying your so-called country. And the next minute you are calling for their assistance to investigate my (wholly legitimate) entitlement to vote in a NI referendum. In true nationalist style you are being thoroughly hypocritical.

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On 26/02/02 22:16:36, Speranza to RB from said:

Well, we both respect the wishes of the people, real and hypothetically. See, I TOLD you we had stuff in common. Haha. As for my evidence for pro-independence Scots Labour voters, its from having lived there and had many Scots friends. A lot of them are disillusioned with the Union, but can´t take the SNP seriously, don´t like the whole Tartan nationalism thing, a lot of people from Glasgow and the central belt associate it with the Highlands, which they don´t feel much in common with, various reasons. A lot of pro-independence folk have family loyalties to Labour going back generations. One thing is for sure, when a lot of people go out to vote Labour, they´re not voting for the Union. For schools and hospitals, out of tribal loyalty to the party of their fathers, out of sheer hatred of the Tories, but not for the Union. That´s my experience. I´m not saying there is a pro-independence majority, but pro-Union feeling is very fragile indeed. The next generation will decide.

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On 26/02/02 22:49:14, Alan Day from Cookstown said:

To elizabeth...Colonial history? Imperialism. Yes nasty english nothing to do with the BRITISH. Oh no there was no such thing as the UNION there were no Irish, Scottish or Welsh in the British army. Sarcasm aside. Irishmen once made up 60% of all officers in the British army at the peak of british colonialism. Secondly the english 'peasants'/ working class were as ill treated as there irish, welsh and scottish counterparts. Do not blame the english blame the ARISTOCRACY of these islands which has slowly been eroded over the last 100 years.

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On 27/02/02 04:56:24, to alan day from said:

obviously you do not read the news with regards Ireland, recently there was an article about how Ireland will NOT let the eu have control of their taxes, like most loyalist comments you are basing yours on facts that are only true in your bigoted little minds

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On 27/02/02 05:15:26, to andrew from said:

be careful for what you wish for, if you feel you desirve a vote, there are a lot of catholics who, over the last 80 years, should also be entitled to a vote, gee I wonder who would then be in the majority!

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On 27/02/02 09:54:05, portadown observer from said:

an outside agitator should have no say. then tell the republics government to get their nose out of northern ireland!!!! oh and by the way is it not funny that it can be cliamed in the same posting that a) roman catholics are second class citizens and then b)that they are better educated and have more powerful a say than ever.....which is it? cant be both unless one suits when your in america or whereever??? lieing hypocrits.

On 27/02/02 11:42:41, RB to SK and others from Belfast said:

We seem to be chasing our tail on the vote thing- Andrew has already confirmed he has a postal vote therefore he has a direct influence on any constitutional issue affecting Northern Ireland- why the debate?

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On 27/02/02 12:45:01, Speranza to Andrew from said:

You still haven´t answered my question, Andrew.

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On 27/02/02 13:43:35, junger munger from said:

learn to spell portadown observer!! all this is boring whatta reckon?

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On 27/02/02 14:30:06, Andrew from Yorkshire said:

I've answered your question, Speranza, as clearly as I'm going to.

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On 27/02/02 15:19:33, Truebrit from said:

Andrew from yorkshire -get back to Ireland! We don't need your paisleymick type on the British mainland.

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On 27/02/02 16:31:26, Speranza to Andrew from said:

Which is not at all. You haven´t even referred to it. I´ll take it that´s a "No", then. Pretty cowardly, Andrew. You should at least have the moral courage to state your position. Maybe I´ve misunderstood you, so I´ll give you a second chance. As an Irish republican, I respect the democratic will of the majority of the NI electorate, which currently holds that NI should be a part of the UK. Should the will of the majority declare, sometime in the future, in an open and free election, that NI should leave the UK and enter a union with the rest of the island of Ireland, will you respect that democratic decision? Yes or no? Let´s have a good old fashioned straight Ulster British answer. Non of the forked-tongued Jesuitical semantics we Fenians are famous for.

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On 27/02/02 16:35:13, Sean to Andrew from Belfast said:

Thats it mate - when faced with a difficult question do the honourable thing and ignore it. In fact you seem rather good at ignoring posts and facts that dont suit your argument - why let facts get in the way of your sad little tirades.

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On 27/02/02 17:55:36, Andrew from Yorkshire said:

Unionists will not live in a united Ireland. Is that clear enough for you? Democracy and Irish republicanism are oxymoronic. There is no timebomb ticking here - just the timebomb of provocation that ticks away in your sad little minds.

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On 27/02/02 18:15:24, Alan Day from Cookstown said:

To 'to alan day'. Membership of European Monetary Union 'The Euro' requires participating "states" to surrender their national currency reserves to the European Central Bank and must follow strict public spendin guidelines. Interest rates are set by The ECB. Ireland may have power on paper to raise taxes but cannot do so without breaking the strict rules "as the germans did with there own rules recently". These rules will adversely affect the celtic tiger when inflation hits the roof and ireland can do nothing as interest rates will be set for germany and france and not suitable to irelands economy which mirrors the UK & USA economies. Secondly, perhaps you do not like my views but they are based on a belief that the union is beneficial to ALL the people of Britain & Ireland regardless of religion. That is what is wrong with people in Ireland it all boils down to religion. i do not care for religion or bigotry. my girlfriend is catholic and we have two lovely children who are celtic and liverpool supporters whilst I am a rangers and man u man. NO BIGOTRY HERE MATE just a different point of view.

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On 27/02/02 18:29:07, Alan Day from Cookstown said:

To speranza. Yes I to would accept the vote of the majority of the population of N.I. to be a peaceful democrat you can do nothing else. I also accept your second posting about scotland. the union is not high up on the agenda especially with the new scottish parliament. to be honest i think the UK needs an overhaul. it is way over governed especially N.I with 3 MEP, 18 MPs and 100 odd MLA and several hundred councillors. I would be in favour of a new federal system...MLA's and MSPs (in scotland) and there welsh counterparts should replace their counterparts in westminster and to be honest i am not that fussed on the monarchy. it is the union i believe in as an ulsterman, an irishman and as a briton.

On 27/02/02 18:42:09, SK from Dublin. said:

RB, I assumed that the fact you live in the north of Ireland would have made you slightly more educated in the voting procedure there. When it comes to constitutional issues, you need to have an address in the statelet before you get a vote. Thought you would have known that a chara. As for Andrew, why not answer Speranza's question instead of legging it with your tail between your legs?

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On 27/02/02 19:07:44, Willie from said:

Alan Day - I'd still vote for you. You are a decent human being. However, Andrew you are just too bigoted for words. Nothing you ever say is positive. How extremely sad.

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On 27/02/02 22:20:01, kevin from the six said:

To SK,,,I am no constitutional expert so am prepared to admit that I may be wrong, but I believe that the Republic has already given its permission in the referendum when they changed the teritorial claim to one claiming the people rather than the ground. They therefore endorsed the GFA to which the ROI government signed up. That agreement states that when the people of NI vote for change, both governments will introduce the legislation to accomodate that wish. I therefore believe you have already given your consent

On 28/02/02 17:43:00, Alan Day from Cookstown said:

I think it is true that certain loyalist groups, particularly the LVF have forged links with the BNP, C18 and other far-right extremists groups/fascists/anarchists/neo-nazis. One reason would be that they wrap themselves in the union jack and call themselves patriots giving common ground with loyalism in terms of 'wrapping onesself in the union jack'...secondly they are networking (IRA networks with PLO, ETA, Cuba, Columbian FARC rebels) as do the ira, inla..it all boils down to paramilitaries becoming overwhwlmingly involved in gangsterism, drug-dealing and mafia type organised, gun-running et al. It is all a very sorry state of affairs for NI crime...they are becoming like c-18, the 'yardies', the mafia. russian mafia.